UNWORLDING...the art form formerly known as "out-of-body-experience," "astral travel," "lucid dreaming," "phasing," "the quick switch," etc.


The reason I have labeled my map of reality with Robert Monroe's Focus areas is to assist unworlders in moving on to the new terminology presented in this book. But it's not just about terminology. Like Monroe, I am an inventor or innovator, and I'm not just pushing new terminology; no more than Monroe was. I like his categories and I respect his many primary contributions to unworlding. If his terms were good enough to keep, I would keep them.

As a matter of fact I am keeping the notions behind his focus areas for the most part and just changing their names, because his terms categorized real experiences, and that's what I'm all about. But his names are too drab and numbery. Numbered states make people think you have to experience certain states in a certain order. His numbers were meant to be random, but they're still numbers and numbers are inherently soldier-like, all in a row and drab. The terminology lacks color. And most importantly, I am determined to insist consistently that people stop saying "out of the body" and replace that inaccurate, misbegotten terminology with something sustainable such as "unworlding" and the wordier but more descriptive descriptions such as "experiences of expanded awareness". Sustainable because it is consistent with fast, easy learning of a simple skill, while the term "out of body" sends unsuspecting beginners in the wrong direction with their critical initial efforts.

Monroe was my idol for years, but I don't want an idol. I want to get unworlded. My newest idol, Frank Kepple, explained Monroe's terms better than Monroe did. He also provided a new set of "primary focus areas" which I will also mention briefly. Unfortunately his P1, P2, P3, P4 (or FoC1 etc.) overlap with Monroe's numberings, instead of starting fresh from an understanding of how vibrational systems work. For example, Frank's P4, where all the non-physical models of everything exist as raw configurations, is just pure twoness and fourness with the 3ness turned way down. Since Monroe was a sound engineer who experienced and talked about vibrations and phasing, he should have devised a system in accordance with sound and wave analogies. I don't know why he didn't, because ancient philosophies still do.

For example, Sikhs base much of their philosophy on "Ek Ong Kaar" which translates literally as the "sound current that oneness uses to create form". Or the older Hindu "OM" which refers to the same thing.

Sound is a wave, a duality or dichotomy, a two-part phenomenon comprised of a positive and negative impulse. Many scientists understand that everything is a wave. That's a large statement. It means that infinity is a wave. And it is; the wave aspect of infinity is twoness, and all the other aspects or harmonics of awareness are infinite because the source of everything, awareness, is infinite. Probability waves are a key concept of quantum physics, which hinges on the awareness of the observer causing the collapse of probability waves into solid form. In discussion of quantum physics, I've even heard harmonics mentioned.

And then in the seemingly solid object we mistake for a body, we have, located together near the heart chakra, a pair of lungs and a pair of double valves called a "heart" which pump some of our precious bodily fluids around. Pumps are pulsers, wave makers. Electricity is also about waves. An electrical engineer friend informs me that acoustics (wave science) and flow dynamics are pretty much the same thing. What does he know? He's just electrical... No, dude, it's all the same thing. Everything is a symbol of everything else. It's pretty obvious that the world is created by a pulsing current or unsteady flow of some source energy. That world is also a dichotomy, with the individual and the world he experiences facing off as a pair. Dig down into the individual and it splits into a pair also: the body and the mind. You can't get away from twoness. It receives its energy from the Source, Oneness or Infinity, which is really just pure awareness, and twoness is all the parts of all the worlds. Just their partness, their separateness from each other, their identity.

Therefore I have depicted the weird little blind alley where we deploy our oddly incompetent physicality as a resonator or sound blaster driven by the greater reality as its source and eventual place of return, with the sound produced by the resonator creating the world, complete with froth. The froth's just the mental noise caused by humans who are obviously out of control.

As Frank Kepple was fond of pointing out, the physical world is a final destination, a dead end, not a portal to a great beyond of larger realities, but an offshoot of, and a creation of greater realities. So it seems apparent to many who lack imagination that this is it and that escaping this earth-bound condition by unworlding seems anti-intuitive to most of those who are stuck here. To get away from this stuckness, we seek experiences that serve as a portal out of the stuckness and lead toward unstuckness, a less rigid, less punishing reality. This does not take us beyond earthness but back through the Tunnel, analogically speaking, to where our source energy came from.

It's very hard to discuss all these states and conditions without referring to them as places, but I refuse to cave in and use terms like "out-of-body". The terminology is important and it should be carefully enough chosen that it naturally becomes more accurate with use, not less.

Monroe's Focus 3 (relaxed with less body awareness) and Focus 10 (all focus inward with no body awareness) are two phases of Frank Kepple's "Noticing". I have now divided Noticing into two parts, and like any other state we discuss, either or both can be skipped over by chance or design. For the beginner it's best to know all the steps so he doesn't get lost.

Noticing starts out feeling forced. You think it's not going to work--you don't see anything--then you realize you're talking to yourself, so you make yourself stop. You see something and your physical eyes try to follow it, which stops the extended vision again. You calm the eyes and immediately you see a light patch, or a series of vague dots or patterns, or a whooshing shadow blowing across the screen out of the corner of your mind's eye, it doesn't matter what. The Voice of Idiossification tells you these vague sightings have no value or interest or reality, and you have to make yourself stop listening to that voice also. So in Focus 3 we have to force ourselves to notice (become aware of inner, non-physical, "unreal" sensations) because all our lives we have been taught the opposite.

Most teachers of unworlding make a big deal out of relaxation, but beginners tend to focus too much on their bodies, and in the process of trying so hard to not feel their bodies, many people end up with a rigidity and motionless numbness that you could hardly call relaxation. Frank Kepple was the first to suggest that we lighten up on the relaxation bit. When you lie down in a dark room, close your eyes and stop thinking, that right there is pretty darn relaxed, and if that statement is not true for you, then you should practice relaxation separately until you are good at it and can relax your body and mind instantly no matter what's going on around you. Otherwise it distracts from what's important, and let's face it, some altered states of consciousness take place traditionally in the opposite of a relaxed state. Real hypnotists also know that relaxation is not an inherent part of true hypnotic trance, so let's just stop making extreme relaxation an obstacle to our goals. We relax automatically when we stop trying so hard; it's instinctive.

After a period of Forced Noticing, if all goes well, you will go into a revery in which relaxation comes naturally and you are not forcing anything, just watching images, maybe hearing aurages or feeling feelages, and not really unaware that your body exists, but completely ignoring it. The sensations arise spontaneously, and you don't have to fight to stop the internal dialog. If you don't watch out, you'll lose consciousness. To prevent this, you begin Climbing the Beanstalk, some pre-planned visioneering (not strict visualizing) routine that will keep you focused on what you're doing. Without getting you to scare the wild bird away by shouting for it to come to you. This is Spontaneous Noticing, formerly known as Focus 10 or "Mind Awake, Body Asleep". You've invested the effort to get this far, so don't ruin it by checking to see if your body is asleep. That's why we need to get rid of the old terminology. Your goal is to notice the images, aurages, and feelages. The more you notice, the more there is.

The exercise I call "Climbing the Beanstalk" or "the Beanpole" for short, is your custom-designed imagined journey through the neck of the resonator, through the tunnel, to the place where the tunnel feels real. This happens by itself. Suddenly you feel something strangely familiar as your 2-3-4 body-mind-world literally dissolves. You feel as if you are being physically squeezed by the Tunnel, maybe claustrophobic. Or you feel hot, or you think your heart is beating too fast. Or you think you're paralyzed or can't breathe. Or you suddenly fear losing your mind or you think someone's in your house or a ghost is sitting on your chest. Oops! You thought about your body when your physical processes were trying to institute sleep paralysis, now you're awake and aware of your body being in paralysis. As always, thinking about the body energizes its need for attention and the result is a hopefully short experience of the waking sleep paralysis. I won't go deeply into sleep paralysis, except to put it in context. Most people have seldom or never been bothered by it because it doesn't frighten them, so they just glide through it--through the Apnea--in a split second and they're out of the tunnel into an expanded state of awareness, completely unaware of the body and not hindered by any physical sensations anymore.

The problem with those of us who don't seem to notice sleep paralysis is that we might try to back out of the Apnea. This results in waking up with that choking feeling. This happens to me all the time, whereas anytime I go into the Apnea unconsciously and get really stuck there with the paralyzed feeling, I tend to be deeply enough into an expanded state that I just carry on as if I were dreaming that I tried to shout and could barely mumble, or tried to kick a bad guy in the face and only kicked the wall enough to wake me up with a sore toe, or something like that. But the other morning after a long night's sleep and several uneventful Noticing sessions, I experienced the Apnea consciously, and went into a short lapse of consciousness which led to an immediate awakening in an expanded state of awareness, the Projection Room, my new name for Monroe's Focus 12.

The Projection Room is awesome. This is the third kind of noticing: Beyond Noticing. The forced or even spontaneous visions within the tunnel are nothing compared to the Projection Room. Like any other state, it can occur in a dream, lucid or not.

But before I move on, I have to say more about the Apnea, also known as Reality Apnea. This refers to a state in which your typical 2-3-4 reality is choked down, slimmed down in the narrow part of the Tunnel, to the point where those parts of your 2-3-4 mind which can't deal with the expanded awareness conditions beyond the Tunnel just get left behind. While this is perfectly harmless--we do it every night when we go to sleep--it can be scary at first to do it without being comatose. The reason for this--I know from previous experience--is that the mind feels it is under attack. Which explains all the scary monsters that people see in sleep paralysis states. I mean, what if you were crawling through a tight, narrow tunnel hoping to get to a big, beautiful cavern, but just before you got out of the constricted throughway, you felt hands all over your body ripping your thousand extra arms off so you would be small enough to get through? You'd turn back, no? But how? The tunnel's too tight, you can't turn back!

That is what the 2-3-4 mind experiences if it manages to stay awake for this part of the process. And it doesn't like the feeling of losing parts. It feels like this, exactly: "You are your mind as you know it. Keep going and you lose your mind. Turn around and you save it." So quite often I wake up trying to turn around and go back, choking, taking huge deep fast breaths in a panic. I am gradually learning to instead feel the physical sensation of entering the final stretch of the Tunnel--the Apnea--and trying to appreciate and enjoy the sensation and wait it out.

What's going on at this point is actually a tuning of the configuration in terms of how much of your energy is going to twoness (duality, emotion, thought, belief), threeness (connection, association, agreement, attachment), and fourness (order, time, system, arrangement). The 2-3-4 mind is very greedy ("doesn't play well with others" including its own higher selves), trying to hog all the energy for its own routine-addicted use. It fights hard to remain in its comfy, cozy, boring, predictable reality. So you--awareness--suffer the result of being firmly and solidly stuck, overly emotional, thinking too much, and plagued by rules and regulations all the time. "Physical" as they say. But there is more than one kind of reality. The 2-3-4 mind is your conscious mind, your physical body, and your physical world, all created simultaneously. This configuration is an energy parasite that has gotten you trapped in the Earthville Mental Institution where such parasites are allowed to indulge themselves in a sort of Reeking Thrashing Pile of Humanity. But it's all we know. So naturally, when you first start to learn how to escape from this safe haven, your 2-3-4 mind is going to scream bloody murder, "I'm losing my mind! I'm turning around! I'm going back!" You wake up in a panic not knowing what just happened.

But I practice Noticing, I try to experience many repeated Awakenings in a day, so I have witnessed the whole process. Not nearly enough times to solidify the skill, but at least I halfway know what to expect. And it's not that the panic occurs every time. What often happens is that the system knows what to do and turns 2ness, 3ness, and/or 4ness down just at the right time, you skate through the Apnea without even Noticing because without the requisite energy feeding through 2-3-4, you will not actually experience the Apnea at all. With perfect timing--that's what you're trying to develop into an intuitive art form--the conscious mind gets turned up a little as soon as the Apnea is past--also known as lucidity, which I prefer to call Awakening--and you ask yourself, "What just happened?" because as far as you know, you might have been asleep for five minutes or an hour. Ideally, it was only seconds, and you are now in the Projection Room. You look around, still Noticing (because the lapse of consciousness was only seconds long or less), and you notice that the walls are melting, metaphorically speaking. You just know you are in a special state of awareness.

If you think (wordlessly or nearly so) of seeing a spiral, you see a spiral. It appears immediately, in full-color, high resolution, and with added features that your conscious mind did not expect. So I will describe what happened to me that prompted this whole chapter. This was not by far my most interesting, prolonged or dramatic experience of the Projection Room. It is my most recent, and most importantly, when I woke up in that state, I knew What Just Happened. That's how we learn the way. Focusing on achieving these little successes in the first months and years of practice is a thousand times more productive than obsessing over the Experiences we hope to have on purpose once we are well into the practice and know the map by heart. Without the little learning experiences, the Big One probably won't come at all unless you have a really awesome near death experience or something.

I'd been practicing uneventful Noticing sessions all night, which meant several times, because that's how many times I had to get up to relieve my nervous bladder. Each time I just lay back down, did some Noticing, and went to sleep. Finally, when I'd had around 8 hours of sleep or a little more, I got back into bed after a final pee, and lay down thinking I'd never get back to sleep. I felt wide awake. I closed my eyes and started Noticing, and of course started drifting into unconsciousness immediately. I am still a beginner, no doubt about it.

Then I felt this weird sensation. In fact it kinda woke me up a little, because I'd been in a bit of a lapse. So this memory had a kind of unconnectedness to it, but fortunately I made a strong mental note of it at the time, because an hour later I had to rely on that in-context memory of this whole thing having even happened. Memories of experiences in expanded states of awareness fade very quickly when the 2-3-4 mind gets its stranglehold back.

I felt this sensation of heat and pressure in my chest area. Without any real awareness of my physical body. Which would be--you guessed it--5ness. The heart chakra, not the physical heart. This was a strong and distinct sensation, but it was almost as if I had dual consciousness, both first person and third person. It was not a static sensation, but a growing, building sensation. One of my dream bodies must have been sending me the message that I had nothing to fear, because I was quite obsessed with the notion that this growing condition was very familiar. And then I blinked out and shortly after that awoke in the Projection Room. This was not something I had expected, visualized, or tried to experience. It was a complete surprise and the memory of it faded in less than an hour.

Once past the Apnea, I noticed that I could feel the famed Vibrations (which I usually can feel whenever waking up directly out of a dream, but I consider The Vibes an indicator, not an engine; I ignore them). I could easily hear the similarly indicatory Sound Current and if I listened to it, it would instantly get a lot louder. I remembered the content of my new Climbing the Beanstalk routine, which was to see a spiral and then try and move it around. I'd tried this plenty of times earlier in the night and had found it was easy to see partial and somewhat fuzzy spirals at odd angles floating around, but they all had a mind of their own. That's spontaneous Noticing. (Forced Noticing is when you almost--but not quite--have to pretend that you even see something.) But now, after passing through the Apnea, this state was beyond Noticing. As soon as I thought about seeing a spiral, one appeared, fully formed. It was a complete spiral in light shades of white and gray; tight, well-defined lines, not the fuzzy, mooshy, darkish spiral sections I'd seen earlier. It was directly in front of me, right where I'd imagined it, and it was absolutely motionless, as if nailed down. What's more, whichever one of my dreambodies or guides was in charge of this event had indulged a well-aimed sense of humor and overlaid the spiral with a cross-hair, equally well-placed and high-definition, as shown in the illustration.

The next step in my beanpole was to move the spiral to the left and to the right, in order to demonstrate that I had control of it in two-dimensions. I imagined it moving over a ways to the left, and it did this so smoothly and undramatically that I was almost underwhelmed. I thought about moving it way over to the right and it again went exactly where I wanted it to go, so easily that I was almost disappointed.

The next step would have been to rotate the spiral, see if I could merge with it and transition to an even more expanded experience, and if not, to elongate it into a tunnel by drawing it towards me. Then I planned to enter the tunnel, go through it, and come out in a new experience. Unfortunately my wife started shouting at dogs downstairs so I decided to get up and write it all down while I still could.

The rest of the states of awareness shown on the drawing are well-known to anyone who reads books on unworlding, except for the Nothing, which we've covered in earlier chapters. So I'll try to be brief.

The Nothing, which Fred Aardema explains well in his book and which Frank Kepple discusses quite a bit, is also called the Void or the 3D Darkness. As Dr. Aardema explains, the Nothing is the doorway to all other states. It is the standardized transition zone, also Monroe's Focus 21. When transitioning into or out of any state, you go through the Nothing, whether you're aware of it or not. Its existence is well proven to me by the frequency with which it appears in dream symbology.

Experiences of expanded awareness that seem to take place in real earth environments are called RTZ or Real Time Zone experiences. This is Robert Bruce's terminology. Robert Monroe called it Locale I in his first book. These experiences are not more or less real than anything else, and they are not of the same world as your body, whether you see your body sleeping in its bed or not. If they were in the same world as your real sleeping body, you would experience them with your physical body, not floating around the room. We do not enter and exit place-like experiential environments. We create an experience and the body needed to experience that creation, from the same configuration and at the same time.

The 2-3-4 mind, for example, is the body, mind, and world all reflecting the same configuration at the same time. So if you experience a body, mind, or world that is different from the typical 2-3-4 mind--for example if it seems like you're in your bedroom, but you can fly and the walls are the wrong color and your wife has three heads--you are not in the same world just mistaking your wife for someone else because your astral body is stupid or something. The Real Time Zone is not The Physical World as seen from some astral body. And it is not a single place, it is a type of experience that seems to you like your accustomed waking experience in some ways. But the 3-headed wife thing... get it? The RTZ just is not accounted for by astral distortion or some similar pitiful excuse. You are having an experience in which your wife has three heads. Don't worry, it's bound to change soon. What I call the 2-3-4 mind-body-world--or the conscious mind, physical body and physical world if I must--Robert Monroe called C1 consciousness.

Remember to pay as little attention to Monroe's unintended numerical order as possible. There is good reason to change this system. There is not some linear progression from Focus 21 to Focus 22 to Focus 23 etc. I can't stress this enough so I probably won't get the point across. I think my new 3D map gets several good points across, one of them being that the Nothing gives equal access to every state of awareness, there being no status seeking in this field once you get at least 2000 miles away from The Monroe Institute or out past Hawaii, whichever comes first. With the exception of the internet, which knows no boundaries when it comes to people seeking to advertise the idea that they know or knew someone important in this field. But who cares.

The drawing doesn't really show it, but when you go through the small end of the Tunnel--the Apnea--in either direction, you can get squirted out like a watermelon seed pinched between two fingers, due to the pressure that the Apnea has to put on you to keep you from screaming in terror and trying to crawl out of the Tunnel backwards. The result of the momentum that got you into the Tunnel to begin with is that you can end up literally in any state of awareness when leaving the Apnea itself, sliding through any intermediate states so quickly that you don't notice them. Like when the alarm clock goes off and you go from deep in some alternate universe to "gotta get to work," making the transition so suddenly that it almost ruins your whole life.

The point being, don't get caught up in doing the right thing in the right order. That which seems to be happening is usually the train you should be on. Mental quibbling kills it all.

The dreamworld or Monroe's Focus 22 is a self-created environment of awareness experiences that automatically reflect your individual configurations. This happens most automatically if you don't know who you are--you aren't lucid--but if you do know who you are, you might find it's not as easy as the lucid dream books say it is, to take control of the dream plotline and manifest any circumstances you desire. The purpose of the dreamworld is to mirror your configuration as an external environment for you to experience, so if you want to change your environment, it's a matter of changing what you have lined up in intent. Intent is the energy that changes things, that creates a new circumstance or condition, and change is fiveness. Of course to have any ability to manipulate 5ness you have to know something about 2ness, 3ness, and 4ness. (In Synfonemia, the numerical progression is meaningful.) So in a sense, Intent incorporates not only the 5ness that it is but all the crap you went through to get a handle on 5ness. Not that you are supposed to take Progress too seriously. That would be allowing 4ness to gorge itself on its favorite idle pasttime, comparing and judging yourself and others.

To illustrate the role of 5ness (the energy of Intent) in all this, take for example our experience with the Tunnel. Starting from 2-3-4 mind we begin Forced Noticing by robbing a bit of 2-3-4's hoarded energy and giving it to 5ness instead. Without a special effort to focus intently, nothing will happen. When this succeeds, there is a lot more flow and a lot less rigid structure, i.e. "my eyes are closed so I can't see a damn thing," turns into, "I sort of saw some dumb little thing." This becomes Spontaneous Noticing when the noticed sensations take on a little life of their own and 5ness gets even more of 2-3-4's usually wasted energy. Normally wasted upshoring the ego, reacting to fears and beliefs, thinking too much, etc. At this point if you just watch the images you might go to sleep, so you begin visioneering a premeditated Climbing the Beanstalk routine to keep 2-3-4 from abandoning you entirely. This engages all 5+ physical senses in stuff that isn't really there physically, and at some point during this exercise, 5ness takes control, shoots you through the apnea, and you wake up from a little dream after a lapse of consciousness. It's all about giving 5ness the controls--because 5ness is fluid and all about change--without throwing away the actual useful skills that 2ness, 3ness, and 4ness have to offer.

Then there are the Loosh Repositories. This is my personal contribution to the unworlding philosophy, surpassing Frank Kepple's understanding, and he spent a lot of time there without noticing that if you don't observe a 2-dimensional entity (reflection), it has no awareness or volition except to repeat its imprinted activity, if anything. Also called Karma Traps, where good and bad karma comes after being "earned" by unsuspecting do-gooders and do-badders who waste their lives thinking that all their shadows stick to them somehow. And Loosh, relatedly enough, is rejected emotional energy which, being properly expressed (and "expressed" means "gotten rid of") by the original owner, becomes a hoarded condiment of those who prefer to eat fertilizer. Loosh eaters abound in these places, which Monroe called Focus 23, 24, 25, and 26. They have no awareness.

Here we have Monroe's Belief System Territories where reflections of people who have died in some parallel world somewhere reflect within the heaven or hell of their choosing: the blank zone of a dead atheist's belief system, the Rutting Pile of the sex addict, the Smoking Den of the dead smoker, the bad karma of a Hitler, etc. These are reflections of people's habits, beliefs, karma, and expectations. They are two-dimensional. They are real and they exist. But these entities are not suffering, they don't have sentience or awareness, because they are just reflections, and you need 3ness and 4ness to exist in a way that allows you to suffer, experience time, have ambitions, etc. When a retriever comes along in his well-meaning astral retriever's outfit and starts talking to the reflection, the reflection suddenly seems to be real, knows things about its life on earth, and might even allow its would-be rescuer to take it to Monroe's Focus 27 Reception Center, where Reception Center employees dressed as its relatives or associates or whatever it takes to make a believer out of it will whisk him away and send the retriever back to where he or she came from.

Which is the whole point of the R Center gambit, because the real name for the R Center is the "Reflection Center". You see, from the perspective of the R Center employees, the retriever is a 2-dimensional relfection of his good but myopic intentions, he doesn't and maybe can't see that it is his interaction with a mere reflection that got the retrievee to act real, and when the employees of the Reflection Center pretend to be the retrieved image's favorite aunt, it is so the retrievee and the retriever will both go away. This is just nature taking its course, there's nothing particularly unusual about it including the fact that most of the participants can't tell what's actually going on.

Just as frequently, the mere reflection either can't be talked into leaving the Loosh Repository or Karma Trap where it belongs, or else it lets itelf be dragged away, and while the retriever's back is turned, it slips loose and is sucked right back to its rightful place in the universes. Just nature asserting itself.

The so-called "negs" also inhabit these zones, which Frank Kepple called "Primary Focus 2," where thoughts, emotions, and beliefs instantly manifest. He knew their habits well, having spent five years early in his unworlding career fighting bad guys which were birthed from his own mind. When he figured out what was going on, he stopped fighting them and they stopped fighting him. But his P2 contains all the thought-responsive non-consensus realities including the heavens and hells, dreamland, etc. There is really no reason to try and enforce a strict delineation between the various kinds of places found within Frank's non-consensus (individually created) P2.

Frank's P3 is supposed to be a consensus reality, but not of the unpleasantly strict type found in our physical reality. Frank called the physical reality P1 and included the RTZ therein as its borderline, but since we're not talking about places, there is no point in thinking this way, and Frank knew that.

His P3, on the other had, was a big deal to him. He was certain that P3 was a true experience of permanent consensus realities similar to P1's physical kind, without the psychotic inhabitants and without the stinking rules needed in the physical world to keep the inmates from biting each other. Here we have Monroe's Focus 27, a "real" consensus reality where the Reception Center [sic] accepts dead people [sic] and on and on. Just let me say that at this point we have to face the fact that our leaders in the field of unworlding are the least objective of anyone as to how their experiences should be interpreted. I prefer the same explanation I use for so-called reincarnation: people experience what they resonate with.

For example, in what I anticipate will be my favorite state of awareness when I finally learn how to achieve it: the Library, formerly known as the Akashik Record. I expect this contains a "record" not of every real thing in history, past, present, and future... but a record of every possibility. Which I imagine I will still find interesting, and I don't think I would have any choice, because plain and simple, nothing is real except awareness. Nothing.

Robert Monroe, Bruce Moen, and Frank Kepple have all reported very different experiences of "Focus 15" or the timeless zone, so I don't take this experience any more seriously than any other experience that is accessible to anyone who knows how to--purposely or accidentally--alter the configuration of his awareness profile. Turn 4ness way down, and presto! Timelessness. It's too simple for words. I've experienced that too. Accidentally, of course.